People who think the simple fact they profess to be atheists makes them automatically smarter than anyone who believes in god can shut the fuck up any time now. I’m not sure what pisses me off most about this attitude – the innate arrogance, the internal logical contradiction or the ignoring of objectively observable reality.
I’ve made no secret of the fact that I think religious fundamentalists are morons. I’ve been very clear that I think people who want to place their religious beliefs on an equal footing on science are evil and enemies of humanity. None of that means there aren’t atheists who are utter fuckwits. I can’t stand people who push the line “I think believing in god is stupid, I don’t believe in god, therefore I’m smarter than anyone who believes in god.”
My response is: shut the fuck up you egotistical, self-deluding simpleton.
Because this type of bigot reflexively accuses me of being a religious fundamentalist I’ll waste a little time explaining what my beliefs are. (I call this a waste of time because it’s no easier to reach atheist bigots than it is to reach any other sort of bigot. Who else but a religious nut would challenge their sacred belief is the superiority of atheism?) My take on the question “Does god exist?” is that it’s irrelevant.
The idea that any “supreme being” could possibly give a shit what us insignificant insects get up to is laughable. And the idea that said deity would punish us for eternity for not bowing down and offering out lifelong obeisance is fucking ridiculous. Those are human behaviours. Any being with those sorts of failings is a long way from supreme.
And I wholeheartedly reject every religion on the planet. No matter how humble and selfless the beliefs of any individual may be, religious institutions exist solely to exert power over other people. Fuck that. Besides which, all religions are working on the assumption that at least 95% of the planet is wrong (when it comes down to it, intra-religion sects hate each other more than they do outsiders). Why not go with the odds and assume 100% of them are wrong?
So if I reject religion, why am I telling hardcore atheists to shut the fuck up? Maybe you consider yourself a follower of science and rational, objective reason. Good for you. That doesn’t make you innately more intelligent than ANYONE. Atheism is a belief system the same as any religion. You can’t prove that god doesn’t exist any more than anyone can prove god does exist. You believe that your rational thought system is right and religious belief is wrong. But by itself, that isn’t a measure of intelligence.
Sure, you can point to insane bastards who reject conclusive science like evolution in favour of their literal interpretation of religious texts. Being able to point out complete freaks doesn’t define you as a genius. In fact, an arrogant belief in one’s superiority is usually a sure sign of lack of intelligence. Intelligent people are actually the most likely to say “I don’t know”. Something religious fundamentalists and atheist bigots have in common is an unswerving beliefs in their rightness – there is something essentially wrong with anyone who disagrees with them.
When someone says “My fundamental non-religious beliefs make me automatically smarter than someone with fundamental religious beliefs” I say “Shut the fuck up!” The fact that someone who would say that is too stupid to see the inherent logical contradiction would be funny if it wasn’t sad. Neither intelligence nor your worth as a human is measured solely on where you lie on the religion/atheism continuum. Unless the person doing the measuring is a fundamentalist zealot.
It really bugs me how atheist zealots argue they are more intelligent than religious believers in the face of objective evidence to the contrary. Saying that a belief in god makes you automatically stupid denies obvious things like the number of scientists and scholars who are religious. Not to mention the amount of scholarly work that has been done through the ages and continues to be done by religious groups.
Why are some atheists so scared to admit that they are following a deeply held belief rather than some objective reality? What the hell is wrong with belief? When you can admit you hold beliefs rather than some indisputable truth you’re saying that you’re still open to questions. You’re intelligent and objective enough to admit that there is always more to learn.
Of course you think your beliefs are right. By definition when you believe something you think you’re right. And it makes sense to defend your beliefs passionately and point out what you think is wrong with contradictory views. But a sure sign of an ignorant, anti-intellectual fuckwit is someone who’s convinced they have no more to learn and it’s impossible they will ever be proved wrong.
I’ve learned from experience that there is a certain (small) subset of atheists who are incapable of making the concession they could be wrong. In this they are every bit as much a fundamentalist as the most backward religious freak. Pressing them on this point tends to make them freak out. But I don’t give a fuck.
Atheist bigots need to shut the fuck up.
89 Comments
May 27, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Well, I certainly see where you’re coming from, but take some issue with “You can’t prove that god doesn’t exist any more than anyone can prove god does exist.” Because burden of proof lies with existence, just as burden of proof lies with guilt; in other words, nonexistent until proven existent just as innocent until proven guilty. That’s just the way science works.
On the other hand, I believe the existence of God can be proved rather easily by science (for varying definitions of “god”. And “science,” probably).
But the whole thing about atheism being nearly as much a religion as religion is? Yeah, totally.
May 27, 2008 at 2:59 pm
That’s a belief system
May 27, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Sort of, I guess. But scientific theories aren’t belief systems. That’s why they’re theories.
Depends on what you believe a belief is, I suppose.
May 27, 2008 at 3:43 pm
I just love this post! I have been wanting to say all this and you did a much better job. I can’t point to one premise which is better than another – the entire post is just as it should have been – precise. I am linking to this page. Atheism is definitely a belief system the same as any religion.
May 27, 2008 at 3:48 pm
[...] by Achelois on May 27, 2008 says Mr. Angry. And no one in the entire Blogosphere can use the F word more beautifully than he does. I’m [...]
May 27, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Can we at least feel superior to the stupid ones? I remember a teacher I had in high school that taught religion class that once “proved” to us mathematically that the soul goes on after death. It went something along the lines of:
Man has a soul (1).
Let’s assume that the soul doesn’t go on beyond death (0).
That would mean that 1=0.
This is wrong, therefore the soul goes on.
I still cringe when I remember that…
May 27, 2008 at 7:04 pm
> Atheism is a belief system the same as any religion.
This is just plain wrong. It is a very common fallacy, however, so we (by which I mean our brothers from The Church of Holy Atheism) are not going to lynch you for this. Of course, if you recant and repent.
May 27, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I read about your post on Achelois, and I really like it, and totally agree with it.
Bigots are in all places, and you’re right, atheism is a belief. The only position I can consider which would not be a belief would not be atheism, but agnostism, that says “I don’t know”, plainly and honestly.
May 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Nicely done. However, as founder and CEO of The Atheist Shopping Network, I do wish you would keep this secret to yourself. After all, I have built a completely nonexistent business on the basis of this anti-belief system. Atheists need to purchase niche products too, you know; bumper-stickers, knick-knacks and the like. It’s like I always say, if you can’t beat ‘em, sell ‘em shit.
May 28, 2008 at 2:52 am
“It’s like I always say, if you can’t beat ‘em, sell ‘em shit.”
Hahahahahahhahahahaha
-falls out of chair laughing-
May 28, 2008 at 8:09 am
Fuck! I’ve just realized that what I’m about to write is going to look pompous – look away, now, if you’re offended by pomposity!
Richard Rorty wrote an essay (“On Human Rights”), and although the subject matter is different, he said something quite pertinent to this discussion, in there, which went something along the lines of “OK, you’ve got your enlightened believer in human rights, who eschews intolerance – wtf does (s)he do about human rights abusers; tell them that they should try harder?”.
In other words (and apologies to those who have already twigged the analogy), if one subscribes to a “superior” belief system, then what becomes of one’s belief system, at the point when one demonstrates the same faults as the system that one believes to be inferior? Thus, isn’t the profound disbelief in God, very similar to a profound and unquestioning faith that He does? What proof does one have that God doesn’t exist? Or, put another way, what would God be doing, if he did exist, such that the absence of that action, now, proves conclusively that he doesn’t exist?
Matt
May 28, 2008 at 8:29 am
Excellent article Mr. A, except methinks the subset of atheists you are referring to is much, much larger than you realize…
May 28, 2008 at 9:12 am
You know I was just thinking about what you were saying about religion being purely for control, And I have to disagree.
It occurred to me that in your animosity towards religion, you may be ignoring the fact that are are actually many uses for religion other than control.
It has been used as a means of preserving the essence, history and traditions of many cultures, teach valuable life lessons, and even social values. IMHO religion is truly only dangerous if it is followed blindly and without logical and independent thought, which, sadly, is the case for the vast majority of them.
But it is no better or worse than a blind belief in say, the law, or that the scientific process can provide the answers to the universe. Or the folk tales and bedtime stories we used to read as children, that taught us valuable life lessons.
I agree that many religions have been subverted for the purposes of control by people in power, but I don’t find it unlikely that it would be it’s only purpose, since it requires a faith on the part of the theist, that does not come from those in power. That kind of power can only be given, not taken.
So I think you might be wrong on at least that point. The rest of it I cannot argue…
May 28, 2008 at 2:18 pm
> religion is truly only dangerous if it is followed blindly and without logical and independent thought
Isn’t that the very definition of being religious?
——————————
This form of lie is not without its uses. You can use it to carry a payload of beneficial beliefs, and they will also become part of the child’s identity. You can tell the child that in addition to never wearing the color yellow, believing the world was created by a giant rabbit, and always snapping their fingers before eating fish, Xes are also particularly honest and industrious. Then X children will grow up feeling it’s part of their identity to be honest and industrious.
This probably accounts for a lot of the spread of modern religions, and explains why their doctrines are a combination of the useful and the bizarre. The bizarre half is what makes the religion stick, and the useful half is the payload.
(from http://paulgraham.com/lies.html)
——————————
May 28, 2008 at 3:34 pm
@Vladimir
No, I do not believe that is what defines religion.
That is what those who wish to make their followers compliant want them to believe. But the truth is that they all have subjective/interpretive components to them. Every religious text can be interpreted differently.
It is one thing to have faith that the religion one has chosen is right for you, and another thing entirely to let another decide for you what it is that your religion of choice wants of you.
From my perspective, any belief system is one of faith. Science, Religion, Atheism, they are all a belief in something based on what each of our individual perceptions of reality is telling us to be true. The true danger with any of them, is to blindly believe that everything you believe (or are being fed) is irrefutable fact…
But I agree with you about religion being used to carry a secondary payload that can be either benevolent or malevolent. This is why I disagree with Mr A.’s rather sweeping statement in that regard.
One can disagree with the delivery system, which, I might add, is often more effective than their secular counterparts, but should not throw out the baby with the bathwater because of it…
May 28, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Achelois: Glad it hit the right notes for you.
DOA: I feel VERY superior to stupid people of all stripes. To use the religious example, once says they believe in literal creationism I refuse to treat them with anything but contempt.
Vlad: Atheism is by definition a belief system. It defines what you belief. I’m all for belief, I just have a problem with people who assume automatic superiority because of a single belief they have.
Marie: I certainly have no problem with atheism, just with atheists who insist it’s an unassailable truth and they’re automatically smarter for believing it.
Tom: atheists have some awesome product lines
Zach: Tom certainly has a way with words
Matt: I believe my belief system is right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. But I don’t say I’m smarter than every person who disagrees with me.
Phyre: I didn’t mean religion as in beliefs per se or the possible benefits individuals get from their religious beliefs and/or institutions. I mean the hierarchy of religions.
May 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm
I don’t really know where to start but here goes….. I remember reading somewhere the statement “I am god of my world”. Some may hold that this statement is blasphemous but I have long thought that is about the only religious statement that I can actually wrap my rather limited brain around, therefore bawling idiotic shit like “please fix problem X for me” at myself wouldn’t achieve very much. I don’t know that I believe that inflicting such torture on some metaphorical metaphysical construct serves any better, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Glad I got that out of the way (my brain hurts….) now to the meat of the matter.
Bigotry is truly deeply stupid. The person that looks at any statement, be it religious or atheist, and says “this is how it is & because i know this I’m smarter than everyone” really should take note and STFU. Yes religion can be used as a learning tool but what institutions teach invariably ends up being twisted by those who will abuse power for their own ends. So in closing I will just have to change my statement to “Until proven otherwise I am god of my world and if you don’t like my world please don’t hesitate to just fuck off.” Nehoo keep up the great work, keep us all laughing (well me anyway) and I hope I didn’t come off as too pretentious a fuckwit. lol }:~)>
May 28, 2008 at 6:45 pm
“Not believing in the existence of God” is not equal to “believing in the non-existence of God”. That’s what happens when a believer is trying to imagine the world view of an atheist: he takes his own one as a base, he throws away the God, thus getting a big hole in His holy place, and declaring that the atheist do believe in that hole, therefore:
> Atheism is by definition a belief system.
This might be a purely terminological debate (like “agnosticism vs. atheism”), and there are, I am sure, many “atheists”, believing in “the hole”. Still, you can’t get an atheistic world view by simply throwing the God out of a religious world view.
May 29, 2008 at 3:16 am
I have been wanting to say all this and you did a much better job.
May 29, 2008 at 9:42 am
“Matt: I believe my belief system is right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. But I don’t say I’m smarter than every person who disagrees with me.”
Actually, that’s an interesting point: everybody can justify their belief system, to a point, and usually relative to others (everything’s relative, of course). Bollox! I’ve completely lost track of what I wanted to say!..
Anyway, my Human Rights professor once said something profound (actually he said many profound things), probably in the Rorty seminar, and it amounted to “nothing is true, other than to the extent that we agree on it”. Even water is only two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen until somebody demonstrates differently; and until that time, we can use H2O as a workable hypothesis. In any case, as you very rightly point out: imagining oneself to be “right,” and therefore “superior,” is a very dangerous business, in a world where nothing is particularly reliable. Put another way, it’s easier to say “I believe [this] to be the case, and it’s what I’m basing my actions on,” rather than to make cast iron statements of fact that don’t fit others’ experience, not least because one can’t be accused of misrepresenting the facts, at a later date!
Matt
May 29, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Fuzzball: You didn’t sound too pretentious
Vlad: I am just talking about terminology. Atheism is a belief, not an objective truth. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Trance: I say it so you don’t have to!
Matt: self-belief is important. Confidence in you beliefs about how the world works is important. I just have fun ripping on people who think they’re intrinsically better solely because of their beliefs.
May 29, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Have to ask the obvious question – did any recent incident trigger the writing of this post?
I would hasten to add that most atheists feeel, not superior, but unconvinced. They are willing to believe, but require more proof. I would hope only a small percentage incorrectly assume the moral high ground.
As an atheist myself, I respect anyone whose heart is in the right place, regardless of their philosophy. I think religious arguments have the tendency to reveal the deeper issue of disrespect one may feel.
Which brings me to my initial question – was there someone who disrespected you recently?
May 29, 2008 at 2:58 pm
No recent event. This has been building up for a while based on behaviour I’ve seen over an extended period of time. Arguably, the people I’m talking about essentially agree with me. I just think they behave like dicks.
May 30, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Haha.
It’s not exactly relevant to this but I never really understand what the religious reject about evolution and what the non-religious and scientific present as undeniable scientific fact.
Is it that the evolution of creatures or that monkeys were your and my forefathers? Care to elaborate?
In any case I don’t think it should be such a litmus test as it is because there are opinions divided on even whether mobile phones cause cancer, for example.
May 30, 2008 at 11:57 pm
I just came to say what Vladimir already said, “atheism is not a belief system, and it is a common fallacy”.
Look up “Athorism” – it’s the simplest example I can think of at the moment of why you are wrong.
If you can show me proof of any supernatural entity, I would change what I thought about the subject – that’s not a belief system, that’s looking for evidence and finding none, then drawing the only obvious conclusion available from that. In that sense it is an objective truth, because it could be changed by evidence.
Belief is a subjective truth, arrived at by different means entirely.
May 31, 2008 at 12:14 am
Most atheists and believers alike (and ALL Creationists) fail utterly to understand the differences between theories, facts and beliefs.
Facts are simply that which support theories; for example, if Darwinian evolution is true, there should be a human Chromosome that’s twice as big as normal and has an end-marker in the middle from where two ape chromosomes merged. And there is. That’s a fact which supports a theory.
Theories work like this: I THINK that this is true, here is my evidence for it being true. If certain conditions are not met, however, it will have been proven to be untrue. Newtonian gravity, for example, is a theory which observation has proven to be untrue. Real scientific theories ALWAYS stipulate conditions by which they can be disproven.
Beliefs work like this: I KNOW that this is true, and it doesn’t matter to me how many facts you put in front of me which, in the ordinary course of events, could be considered an absolute proof that my belief is wrong, I will still know that my belief is true.
So I while I understand what you’re saying, my own take is that an atheist who can make those diferentiations is less gulled than a believer who cannot. I make no comment on intelligence, because the causes of religious belief nullify that kind of argument; we believe with absolute certainty that which we are taught as infants; it’s an evolved survival mechanism, and what we learn at that young age usually stays with us for life. See Richard Dawkins’ “The Virus of Faith” commentary for a fuller explanation.
May 31, 2008 at 4:00 am
Hey Mr A. regarding, my earlier comment about your statement regarding the purpose of “religious institutions”, perhaps we are thinking of different things. “When you say the “hierarchy” of religions, what exactly do you mean?
Are you talking about religious organizations in general like you local Evangelical free church where you have a pastor and a flock? Or are you talking specifically about religions with very regimented leadership structures like the Catholicism, where (for example) the Pope is higher up in the latter than a friar (or whatever), and everything has to be approved by the Roman Catholic church in Rome type deal?
May 31, 2008 at 11:48 pm
It’s scientifically proven that average theist is dumber than the average non-theist.
It’s pretty obvious really, if you lack the intelligence to question your beliefs you will remain a sheepish theist that follows rather than thinks for him/herself.
As for athiests thinking they are cleverer than non theists, I don’t know for sure. Most atheists online can quote scripture, scientific studies and analyse psychological behaviour to a MUCH higher degree against a thiest.
I’ve yet to see a SINGLE theist win a logical rational argument against an atheist and this is SINCE THE KNOWN BEGINNING OF HISTORY!
So maybe these atheists that actually are clever, can give theists something to look up to as an achievement: mastery of their thought capacity.
I think people get pissed off because they dont like being shown up to be less intelligent in a conversation, which is inevitably (and statistically) what happens when theist and atheist meet.
June 1, 2008 at 1:01 am
“The Truth
May 31, 2008 at 11:48 pm
It’s scientifically proven that average theist is dumber than the average non-theist”
That is the most ludicrous bullshit I have ever read.
1) Science is never really proven (see my post above);
2) Theism has got fuck-all to do with intelligence and EVERYTHING to do with environment;
3) Quote your sources, you arrogant prick! Show me the “scientific proof”; show me a list of every religion vs. science debate in history together with a potted summary of the outcomes.
It’s wankers like you that Angry Aussie was talking about; you knw absolutely fuck-all about the subject, yet still vent-forth with pseudo-authority based solely on the fact that you believe your atheism makes you superior. In short, you’re a complete and total cunt.
By the way, just to clarify for those who didn’t read my earlier post, I’m an atheist.
Sorry if I stole some of your angry thunder, Angry Aussie, but “The Truth” needed ranting at for being such a prick.
June 1, 2008 at 5:01 am
Noes!! they have brought the religious arguments to your page :S
June 1, 2008 at 8:18 am
The Truth wrote:
“It’s scientifically proven that average theist is dumber than the average non-theist…”
LOL. That can’t possibly be true, can it (not least because my experience tells me that I shouldn’t place too much “faith” in science!)? I’ll tell you what: I’ll pretend to be a God-fearing something-or-other, and you can try to whip my ass in argument, if you like!
Matt
June 1, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Science is not a religion first off.
Lets both inject ourselves with a lethal poison, you go to a church and pray for god to cure you, i’ll go to a hospital and ask a doctor to help me (medical science vs god)
I’ll pay for your coffin if i win
June 2, 2008 at 11:53 am
I believe in YOU Mr. Angry!
Thank you for this heartfelt, fuck-all post! BRILLIANT. Wonderful commentary too. I’ve been sick to fucking death of this debate since 1983.
YOU GO custador! When Jeebus returns, he will disprove EVERY theory. Scientists will be crying in the streets, along with the devout of every faith.
Amen.
June 2, 2008 at 2:28 pm
A guy: There are some things I regard as litmus tests (like if you believe in creationism you’re a fucking moron) but my whole point is saying one belief points to your innate superiority is stupid.
HJ: Why are you so scared of embracing your beliefs? I don’t get that.
Custador: I don’t think you did get my point. My point is that someone who professes atheism alone makes them smarter than all religious people is a deluded fool.
Phyre: by hierarchies I mean the structure put in place in formal religious institutions
“Truth”: I have no idea if you’re being ironic or if you really are that stupid.
Custador: Best not to waste too much energy with that that type.
Simon: I brought it
Matt: That delusion probably comes from the fact that statistically atheists/agnostics are more likely to have reached a higher level of education than religious types. That little statistical fact in no way supports the idiotic statement made by that commenter.
Simon: I’m a rationalist – if you inject yourself with poison then show up at my hospital I’ll let you die
David: What can I say? I like pushing people’s buttons.
June 2, 2008 at 8:46 pm
“David Levine
June 2, 2008 at 11:53 am
I believe in YOU Mr. Angry!
YOU GO custador! When Jeebus returns, he will disprove EVERY theory. Scientists will be crying in the streets, along with the devout of every faith.
Amen.”
Did you read my posts at all? Seriously? I mean, more than one sentence?
June 4, 2008 at 5:35 pm
[...] a belief and that they’re as bad as fundamentalist christians and should shut the fuck up! (source) A wonderful diatribe with some excellent points, except of course, he’s wrong. (Which [...]
June 10, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Eh, I really think you are railing against the group of atheists that want to call themselves “The Brights” and those of that ilk.
And have at it. I’ve always felt that their intention was decent, but they were just too fucking pompous to pull it off right. (Their argument is that the word “atheist” carries a negative connotation and should be replaced by one with a positive connotation that makes you sound like a total douche when you say it).
But I’m an atheist. Fuck all the connotation. I believe in exactly zero supernatural entities. I am completely and utterly without god(s). I am as the ancient Greeks would say, atheist.
However, I object to your classifying atheism as a belief system and will also respond with a pithy canned reply: “Atheism is no more a religion than not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
Being atheist is hard in conversation. A lot of people define themselves by religious affiliation. People say, “I’m Catholic” or “I’m Jewish”. So when the question comes around to the atheist, what can he say? “None”? But that includes people who believe in a god, but don’t ascribe to any particular religion. The best we can do is to distill it down to a word that means we don’t believe in shit.
Then people have to wonder why you’re an atheist. What happened? Etc. As if it takes some life-altering trauma to make you give up and hate god(s).
Yes, hate is always implied in the questioning. You must hate god to not believe in him. So as an atheist, you come into a discussion at a disadvantage. Not only do you have to prove that you don’t hate god (which naturally only proves that you love god and therefore secretly believe), but you have to explain how you can both not hate god and not believe in him.
I’ll try to explain it by using an analogy.
You woke up yesterday. You ate breakfast, you drank coffee, you went to work, you came home, you went to sleep. A pretty routine day. Nothing major happened, you were concerned mostly with trivial work details and whatever leisure activities you had planned for that evening.
The next day, the utility bill comes in. You spend your day similarly, but now you check you checking account for appropriate funds and transfer anything necessary to cover both any outstanding balances and this new bill.
God is something like that for me. I don’t think about it most days. I go about my way and do my things and live my life the best way I know how. Then something occurs that makes me think of god, religion, and the whole shebang. One day, I realized that for the most part, I function as if there is no god. My choices don’t ever dwell on the approval of some supernatural deity.
On that day, I decided to make my position official. From there, and being a natural skeptic and cynic, I started looking at the god question in terms of everything. I then realized that the only rational position in which the world could reliably exist would be if that the supernatural did not exist.
Existence and the supernatural are contradictory qualities.
June 10, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Hey dipshit, I guess saying “fuck” a lot makes your opinion a lot more intelligent. And everyone who’s an atheist must be a bigot, and your rant is completely valid.
Also, you’re not being bigoted AT ALL by making generalizations about atheists thinking they are smarter than everyone. Don’t you think that there are religious people who believe that they are smarter than those who don’t believe in God? It’s bound to happen. I’m an atheist, and I think I’m right. It’s just the way it works, you’re bitching about nothing.
Atheism isn’t a belief system. And if you still want to convince yourself that it is, and that being agnostic is the only way to go, well then you’re basically saying that that is a belief as well.
You clearly think you are smarter than anyone, fuckhead. (Hey look! I can swear too!) I can’t believe you have a blog.
June 11, 2008 at 8:12 am
Beth wrote:
“…I can’t believe you have a blog.”
And yet, there it is: bold as brass. Fuck me! It’s one thing to have an argument about whether or not God exists, but at least we have the excuse that we’ve never seen the guy (if “guy” He be) – to not believe in something that’s right in front of you seems to be taking the whole nihilism thing a bit far!
Matt
June 11, 2008 at 2:04 pm
BA: I agrre with you that the attitude of some religious people that atheism must be a reaction to some traumatic event is bloody stupid – it’s a logical thought process. Note that I don’t consider belief system and religion to be synonymous. I think religion is stupid. I think belief systems are something everyone has (it doesn’t mean blind faith, it means what you believe.)
Beth: Wow. Just wow. I couldn’t have asked for a better illustration of the sort of arrogant, ignorant moron I’m talking about. Thanks for proving my points for me.
Matt: Just one of the stupid elements of that comment. Nicely dissected.
June 17, 2008 at 8:50 am
mooo
July 15, 2008 at 12:28 am
No, atheists don’t have the market cornered on bigotry, but neither do the religous nuts. And do you believe that there is no God(s)? Then congrats, you have a belief system. Just because you believe something is true doesn’t mean that you are right, and just because I believe that something is true does not me that I am right. I just think I am, and so do you. I think that that is what Mr. Angry was getting at, but I could be wrong about that too.;-) And it’s his fucking blog, so it’s his fucking right to fucking swear all the fuck he wants to. ;-P
July 16, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Aislinn: Fuckin’ A!
July 20, 2008 at 12:05 pm
atheism is a term to refute the existence of god: it is not a religion- the only reason it has a name is to differentiate it from theism. Most atheists I know reject the idea of a god to start with, and this “tag” is convenient for labelling only.
July 22, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Why not get really defensive?
July 29, 2008 at 8:04 am
You, sir, are complite asshat, dickface and fucktard. Like every atheist.
ALL atheists are fucking cunts, and they’ve well deserved to be throwed in the concentration camps. In fact, atheism is poison, it’s a virulent plague, like atheists, and it needs to be purged.
Only we, the religious people, are the elite of human race. It doesn’t matter what religion you follow (although you damn better be fundamental christian, or else…!) , only thing that matters is that you’re religious.
I believe that there will come a time, when all atheists will be finally killed off. Their families too shall be destroyed.
I can barely wait that day. Death to all atheists!
PS: Every fucktard out there who thinks that this was sarcasm: suck my cock you fucking asshole!
July 29, 2008 at 1:40 pm
@Modern crusader, you wrote.
“ALL atheists are fucking cunts, and they’ve well deserved to be throwed in the concentration camps. In fact, atheism is poison, it’s a virulent plague, like atheists, and it needs to be purged.”
I guess your a religious extremist or more to the point a fascist. You are calling for the murder of people who have a deference of opinion. That is a crime.
@Angry
I have believed, not believed, believed, not believed. I have to agree that religious or atheist views are extremism. I see that in the Bible, Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within. This is similar in many philosophies. Since everyone experience reality or non-reality differently, then it’s impossible to prove to another something that can only be experience by personal experience.
July 29, 2008 at 2:09 pm
@heresiarch, you wrote.
“atheism is a term to refute the existence of god: it is not a religion- the only reason it has a name is to differentiate it from theism.”
I would have to agree with Angry here. You hold your views with extremism, yes another ism. Very defensive and very touchy. I can understand why some people become atheist when they see the hypocrisy of deeply religious people.
You can only declare yourself a atheist when you have some understanding of belief systems covering the full spectrum of eastern and western philosophy. If you do not have this understanding then you have a belief or ism.
July 29, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Modern Crusader, under which belief system is the mass murder of infidels promoted?
If you honestly believe people who don’t believe in a God should be killed, then are you saying that the millions of people born into circumstances where they are not exposed to religion should be killed also? Are they expected to find God and learn religious fundamental practices by themselves?
Your argument is fucked. Shut the fuck up you Grotty grotty sarcastic wanker
July 30, 2008 at 12:42 am
Either Modern Crusader is just really good at parody, or he/she/it is a complete wank. I don’t believe that MC is an adult yet, either way.
July 30, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Modern cocksucker: It’s so hard to tell the difference between stupidity and sarcasm online
Alan: You seem to have gotten my point
I’m not fond of extreme dogmatists of any persuausion.
Squinch: He is indeed a wanker.
Aislinn: A complete lack of sophistication no matter what he was trying to do.
August 2, 2008 at 7:31 am
Angry,
I agree with the general spirit of your post. Arrogance and bigotry are not human virtues. That’s for sure.
But when you said..
“Why are some atheists so scared to admit that they are following a deeply held belief rather than some objective reality? What the hell is wrong with belief?”
..it gave me pause.
When Pierre LaPlace brought a copy of his work to Napolean, and Napolean asked him why he omitted God from his scientific theory, LaPlace simply responded that it was not necessary to put God in the picture. The world of science does not contain “beliefs.” Science has hypotheses, and they’re tested before they become theories. If you held a ball at waist height and said “I believe this
ball will fall to the ground when I let it go,” people might snicker. They *know* the theory of gravity predicts that it will fall. They don’t *believe* it. What I’m getting at is this very basic question that has been asked since antiquity: Where does knowledge end and belief begin? Why do we laugh at someone who disputes common or scientific knowledge but simultaneously accept a “belief” (or lack thereof) in God? After all, a theist and an athiest cannot both be right, objectively speaking. But why do we accept the concept of belief as valid in the first place?
Now, some may doubt science or empirical evidence and thereby classify science itself as “belief.” We can say “nothing is true, other than to the extent that we agree on it.” We can also say “the only thing for sure is that nothing is for sure.” If we do this, we paint ourselves into a proverbial corner. This is the slippery slope toward self-doubt.
All of this may be opening an epistemilogical can of worms, but.. While I’m not “scared” to admit deeply held “beliefs,” I do think the concept of belief itself is something we as humans could do without. Drop it; it’s dead weight. There’s a line in a recent song lyric that says “I don’t believe in belief,” which was actually stolen from Richard Dawkins. As paradoxical as it may sound, it actually rings true for me. I prefer to substitute “I believe” with “There is a preponderence of evidence that.” Yes, I am a science guy. If you have no evidence to support your theory, you’re just whistling in the dark.
Here is a dialog from the movie Dogma, that I find quite interesting:
Bethany: Having beliefs isn’t good?
Rufus: I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant.
Karl
August 5, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Hey Karl,
what I don’t get is the tendency of some people to obsess over semantics. Belief is a word. idea is another word. Arguing about definitions gets pointless very quickly.
Anyone who thinks they *know* everything is in serious trouble, whether they use science or religion as their crutch. As I believe I made agonisingly clear, I was not attacking atheism, I was attacking bigoted people who seem to believe that their professed atheism justifies behaving like total dicks.
August 5, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Hi Aussie, you said “Atheism is a belief system the same as any religion.”
Actually, that is not true. Atheism include lack of belief in God, not just sureness that there is no God. Actually, even the most artent Atheists have said this. Just as we don’t believe in fairies for simple lack of proof, we don’t believe in God. Unverifyable evidence does not count, such as Christ’s image in a potato chip.
August 6, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Mr. Angry,
I’m not claiming to know everything, and neither are you. But can’t we strive to know what we know, and know what we don’t know? Belief is not the way to reach that goal. And actually, if you want to know where this “arrogance” and “bigotry” comes from, look no further than belief itself. Why is there racism in the world? Because people *believe* in the superiority of themselves over others. Why do hijackers crash planes into buildings? Because they *believe* they will be rewarded in heaven. The list goes on and on…
Belief, be it in God, heaven, hell, astrology, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster leads to strife most of the time. The rest of the time it just impedes progress.
I wouldn’t dismiss science as another belief system. I could expound on that, but I don’t want to fill up your blog space.
August 7, 2008 at 3:15 pm
This talk about issues concerning belief is just nonsense. This is a 5,000 year of debate where no agrees. The God we are told about in western civilization (or Christian Bible) is just ridiculous. From my perspective both Theism or Atheism or any other ism are mere belief systems.
What ever you want to call it, God, Chi, Prana, The Golden Light, it is real, it exist and it is not felt by the five senses of the body. It can only be known by direct personal experience and no manner of words can express it.
In saying this I see myself no better or worse than another person and my experience can not be compared with another person’s experience. All I can suggest is to look within and let your intuition guide you.
August 8, 2008 at 6:58 am
Hey Karl,
The Flying Speghetti Monster is the only true God. Don’t dismiss him as just a *belief* system as well!
August 8, 2008 at 11:45 am
Jesse: if you’re not going to be swayed by a potato chip then you’re a minion of satan
Karl: I disagree pretty much entirely with the concept that science and/or atheism aren’t belief. They’re not the same as the blind faith practiced in most religions but quite frankly, the unwillingness of some people to admit they “believe” rather than “know” shits me to tears.
Alan: I prefer to aim for understanding objective reality as much as possible
Squinch: Teach the controversy!
August 21, 2008 at 6:27 am
i really enjoyed this article/blog/rant whatever people call it. i have to absolutely agree with about 99% of what you said.
not every religion believes other religions are wrong. yes, i’m catholic, one of the most hardcore christians next to evangelicals. but my catholic church (vietnamese catholic) believes that no one religion is more right or wrong then others. everyone who lives a moral life goes to heaven regardless of whether someone has a religion or are just atheist
August 22, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Wise words
I know many religious people who do not denigrate the beliefs of others or arbitrarily condemn them to hell. However, every religion by definition declares that all other religions are wrong, otherwise there is no reason for that particular religion to exist.
August 24, 2008 at 9:27 am
@ Mr Angry: so, it seems i hurted your petty feelings, you little bitch. Good, you’ve showed to be just as fucked up, cocksucking, arrogant asshole like all other atheists.
You are not worthy to even kiss my ass, so go fuck Dawkins you pussy.
August 24, 2008 at 11:45 am
So that’s the sort of thing you think about while masturbating? Me kissing your arse while fucking Richard Dawkins? You are one kinky devil! Did the parish priest introduce you to those ideas?
August 25, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Maybe he is referring to “Kissing Hank’s ass”?
August 25, 2008 at 8:28 pm
modern crusader: owned, bitches
August 25, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Angry: Seems as though Modern Crusader is on the same level as bigoted atheists as bigoted religion heads.
Modern Crusader: Give yourself a history lesson and search the crusades on whatever website takes your fancy, i’m sure you’ll find that your as fucked up as your name sake and us atheists share the same belief about religion because of what happened in the crusades for a reason. Just in case your too lazy to give yourself a history lesson i may as well give you one since your fucked up Christian thought processes probably forbid you to think for yourself.
Any way as i was saying back in the good old days the Pope wanted to send everyone man and his dog to war to kill off innocent CHRISTIANS and other religions and retake the holy land. So as the story goes every man and his dog were sent down their and they spit roasted babies and normal stuff like that.
So as you can see, thats why i reject religion, no not just for what happened during the crusades but because of the belief in a God can persuade people out of their normal human thinking and go and burn babies of their own religion. Also the thought that i need a God to tell me what to do shits me to tears. These are only a handful of reasons why i do not like religion but anyway, i know you probably think this is stupid, but it might get you to think for yourself and that’s my plain message. If you think this is a pointless message go fuck yourself you retarded cock-muncher.
August 25, 2008 at 10:52 pm
MC, begone, before somebody drops a house on you!
August 26, 2008 at 1:21 pm
So we’re in agreement about MC being an embarrassment to humanity then?
August 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm
agreed
August 26, 2008 at 4:42 pm
It would appear to be a consensus, yes
August 31, 2008 at 5:51 am
[...] Atheist Bigots: Shut the Fuck Up [...]
September 17, 2008 at 5:10 pm
they pray to a bitch spelled backwards is dog.
alert(“did you disable js”);
and then …
September 17, 2008 at 5:12 pm
disable jc
September 20, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I’m slightly confused. I don’t want to be a bigot or anything. I don’t hold a solid belief that there is or isn’t a god so I don’t consider myself atheist. However, when people sit there and outright deny something with such sound evidence, something like evolution or geological time, I can’t help but think I’m smarter than them.
I don’t think I’m smarter than anyone who holds a firm belief in god or holds a firm belief in the lack of one, nor do I think I’m smarter than anyone who has religious beliefs, I’ve met a lot of smart people who are religious.
Would you say it was OK to think you are smarter than the entirety of people who have these convictions, or would that make me a bigot?
The definition of a bigot is someone who uses a generalization about a group of people to pass judgement on them.
Basically I’m talking about fundamentalists, because I belief there is something deeply and inherently wrong with anyone that is a fundamentalist, and really the things I don’t like about them are what make them fundamentalists to begin with. It’s not really a generalization to say that all fundamentalists have insanely medieval logic, because its that logic that puts them into the category to begin with. I don’t think anyone actually considers them a fundamentalist, it’s a label put on them for their thoughts and idea about the world.
I feel bad thinking the way I do, but I can’t help but think that anyone who is so completely fundamental in their values as to think that women really were made from a rib 6000 years ago is much less intelligent than me.
Set me straight Mr. Angry.
September 20, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Also, sorry about the grammatical errors and the mixed up order of things I wrote. I forgot to take the time to edit it thoroughly before I submitted it.
September 20, 2008 at 7:54 pm
@loquacious
Where did you happen to learn that science of Evolution? I dare say it came from your schooling. Do you know much about Charles Darwin’s family? A very interesting family that liked to intermarry. Yes, his own theory would suggest that intermarrying does not help.
A clue, you have two theories that contradict each other. You then let people attack each other from the extremes of the belief spectrum and you get to limit the debate within the constructs of what is being debated. This limit of debate could be understood as a mental box or mental prison.
Have you heard of the term, “thinking outside the box?” Also who is it that sets the limits of the debate?
September 22, 2008 at 10:58 am
loqacious: I thought I was pretty clear – people who say the simple fact they profess to be an atheist makes them automatically smarter than anyone and everyone who believes in a god are idiots. That said, I personally think people who give religious belief primacy over rational thinking and scientific exploration are idiots.
September 27, 2008 at 11:48 am
“Atheism is a religion”
“Atheism is not a religion”
Both are correct. Atheism is, at its core, simply a lack of theistic belief. If you let it go at that, then you are a negative or weak atheist. That is not at all religious.
If, however, you go further and assert that god does not exist, then you are a positive or strong atheist. Unless you have proof or evidence for that proposition, you are maintaining a positive belief in a thing on the basis of faith, and that makes you religious.
October 8, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I think religious is a loaded term. I don’t see anything wrong with the word “belief” and I think any professed atheist who gets their knickers in a knot over it is more than a touch paranoid.
November 3, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Religion and its phenomenon are much much bigger than your limited generalizations of them.
November 4, 2008 at 3:25 am
Dragon, you’re full of shit. Atheism is not a religion and never will be. You’re “strong” and “weak” atheist comments are fucking laughable at best. You’re failing utterly to grasp the difference between the opposite of a thing – for example: “You’re God doesn’t exist! MY God does!”, and the absence of a thing – for example: “There aren’t any Gods. Now stop fucking fighting and shut the fuck up before I bitch-slap you both”.
An atheist is always an atheist, and as such has no religious belief. What there are, though, are people who think that organised reliogions are extremely fucking dangerous and should be challenged over their medieval population control techniques because they think they’re fucking evil.
November 6, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Gimel: given the obvious limits of your intellect I think I’m safe in ignoring you.
Custador: I would agree that the “religion” label is totally inappropriate. Which is not to say unthinking zealots don’t exist on the atheist side.
June 16, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Nice article.
I’d just like to counter a point some people above are making – nobody has to “justify” their belief system to anyone else as long as they aren’t trying to shove it down the throats of other people. Religions have done that a lot over the years, but these bigoted atheists are doing the exact same thing now.
Also – atheism is not the same thing as science. Science is a method of predicting the outcome of physical phenomena based upon repeatable experimentation, atheism is a belief system the same as the Church of Satanism or whatever else you want to pluck out of the air. Get off the fucking high horse Karl. For everyone who died in 9/11 for a “religious” cause (anti-USA fanatics from the Mid-East) there were a dozen who died in the Slovoki Camp of Special purpose just because they were religious and Stalin decided he that atheism needed to be implimented across the country with force.
Extremism is the danger, and it doesn’t come from atheism or religion, but from a complete refusal to accept the possibility that the other guy might just have a point.
June 26, 2009 at 5:09 am
… well, you are quite uninformed sir.
Saying:
“The idea that any ’supreme being’ could possibly give a shit what us insignificant insects get up to is laughable.”
is the same thing as saying:
“I think believing in god is stupid”
You’re just saying it in a nicer way, it is BS to think you are saying otherwise. In other words:
“shut the fuck up you egotistical, self-deluding simpleton.”
And also:
“The fact that someone who would say that is too stupid to see the inherent logical contradiction would be funny if it wasn’t sad.”
Throughout the article, you also seem to have many blatant errors of thought, like:
“Atheism is a belief system the same as any religion.”
No, it isn’t. Atheism is a devoid of belief, meaning, you simply don’t have a belief in a god. It’s not a belief system. Get it? Even if it was the belief that there was no god (which assumes existence of god), it’s a single belief, therefore it is not a system. It’s not a belief though. It’s not a religion, it’s not a ideology, it’s not a philosophy, it’s not a creed, it’s not a world view, it’s not anti-religion, it’s not knowing there is no god: it’s simply the lack of belief in a god. It’s the opposite of theism, which is none of the above as well. Atheism and theism, simply profess a whether or not you have a belief in god.
On that note, all non-theistic agnostics are atheists, they are only delusional/misinformed that they are not. Can you put 2 and 2 together and tell me why?
“You can’t prove that god doesn’t exist any more than anyone can prove god does exist.”
Maybe not, but I can prove that a Christian god doesn’t exist, or a Greek god doesn’t exist, and so forth. Simply because they give constraints and details to their god, which can be proven false or erroneous. You’ll find that people almost never have a problem with theism, they have a problem with religion. Understand? Am I getting through to you? It’s hard to tell.
“incapable of making the concession they could be wrong”
And why wouldn’t they be? They haven’t been proven or shown otherwise. They haven’t been given any reason to be. What’s your favorite food? Have you made the concession that you could be wrong about your favorite food? I mean, what if you just haven’t tried your favorite food yet, and somebody showed you that your really like this new food you’ve never had the best? Yes, that is how BS your argument really amounts to when it comes down to it. Have you made the concession that wearing a jacket, you know, might not really keep you warmer? No? What if I put ice inside that jacket? Now it’ll keep you colder. Tsk tsk, you shouldn’t have been so arrogant…
But no, really, refer to the first paragraph basically every time you speak about the religious, as you basically amount to saying “I think believing in god is stupid” in fancier and fluffier terms. Really, I think there is no better audience to this blog post than yourself.
In fact, on this note, I think you just have a problem with others like yourself.
June 26, 2009 at 7:42 am
Uninformed? Religion is a crutch for weak, mindless fool who want some magic man in the sky to take care of their problems. YOU ARE PATHETIC! A weak, snivelling pathetic little freak with obviously delusional beliefs.
I’ll go further than saying your belief in god is stupid: YOU ARE A PATHETIC WORTHLESS CUNT. Fuck you and fuck every delusional piece of shit like you!
June 26, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Umm…
…
I’m not religious. I’m quite clearly atheist by my post… if you couldn’t tell.
What my comment basically boiled down to, since you obviously didn’t read it, is that you are pretty much the audience for your own post here. I’m going to assume it was just too big for you to read.
And your above comment really just affirms that. Now would you actually like to comment on what I said? Or would you like to make a reply based only upon my “Umm…”, as clearly you didn’t make it past the first sentence in my first comment…
Or maybe you did, but just couldn’t comprehend it?
June 27, 2009 at 12:04 am
I could tell you were a complete cunt from your post. I couldn’t give flying fuck about what delusions compel you to act like such a cunt.
July 1, 2009 at 7:06 pm
fuck christians!
fuck people who say “fuck christians”!
…
i say fuck people who think identifying cliches makes them original
i.e.
fuck you
July 1, 2009 at 7:16 pm
p.s.
if you really want to exhibit edgy panache, why don’t you instead single out islam (aka the religion of peace)?
now that would be breaking barriers… as far as talking about things that people aren’t to talk about goes, pointing out that christianity celebrates a dude who washed the feet of paupers while islam celebrates a warlord who united tribes to conquer cities is right up there.
that would be edgy and original, playboy
July 2, 2009 at 7:00 am
Wow, you’re a pathetic fucked up loser moron who believes in imaginary men in the sky AND you’re a bigot too! Wow, what a package! You you really are the worst sort of snivelling cunt. Fuck off and die you worthless shitstain on humanity.