I learned a few years ago that a certain subset of humans appear to believe male circumcision is one of the greatest acts of barbarity still perpetrated in the modern world. They get incredibly obsessive over the topic and they don’t seem to comprehend that many people rightly think the topic simply isn’t that fucking important.
I can generally let them go, I have no interest in trying to sway them from their views. Although it can be a lot of fun to make jokes at their expense. However, where this crowd can make me extremely fucking angry is when they say that male circumcision is exactly the same as the female genital mutilation still practiced in some societies.
From experience, I have learned that it is absolutely pointless to “engage” or “debate” with people who are obsessed with this issue. It’s an emotional issue for them and once an issue has become emotional there is no point in further discussion. They say they want to “debate” but all they actually want to do is ram their point of view down your throat. And I simply don’t give a fuck about people who do that.
To say that male circumcision is the same as female genital mutilation is unsupportable both logically and morally. Male circumcision removes the foreskin either for cultural or health reasons (you’re free to say this is pointless – I really don’t give a fuck about arguing the point). The point of circumcision is NOT to impair the function of the penis or the male enjoyment of sex. In the rare cases when something goes wrong with a circumcision and there is some damage that was NEVER the INTENTION of the procedure.
Female genital mutilation is specifically designed to damage the sexuality and sexual enjoyment of women for religious and/or cultural reasons. It is a premeditated violent act that frequently causes long term physical trauma and pain for the girls and women it is performed on. It is specifically about repressing and punishing women simply because they are women.
The two act are not the same in either effect or intention. To claim male circumcision is “just as bad” is quite frankly disgusting and reprehensible. The level of self-absorption required to make such a statement stuns me.
This all came up again because of my recent TFU Friday video which included a story dealing with female genital mutilation.
I knew from experience bringing up the topic would bring the male circumcision zealots out of the woodwork and I made it very clear I wouldn’t tolerate them hijacking the comments. Which, to be fair, is also baiting them. And they are far too self-obsessed to be able to resist the bait.
But I also mean what I said. In both the video and this blog post I have no intention of wasting time with people who are obsessed by the topic of male circumcision. I really don’t give a fuck about the topic, you’re free to have your own opinions and I have no wish to get involved in your obsessions. Those who insist on asserting that male circumcision is as bad as female genital mutilation are beneath my contempt.
By definition, I won’t be wasting time on them.
Angry 365 Days a Year 
While I agree that female circumcision is bad, I can not disagree stronger with you that male circumcision is not as bad. Both are barbaric customs that have no place in a modern society and both should be outlawed for babies and children.
There were many who in medical history who recommended circumcision as a way to prevent masterbation. There purpose was to reduce the stimulation of the penis.
Now I myself was circumcised, and I can’t undo the past so I don’t worry about it. I frankly marvel at those who attempt to have corrective surgery on their dicks.
However, I do believe that people need to be educated about the reasons not to circumcise. I can’t change everyone’s mind, but I can hopefully change a few. That is why I am an outspoken critic of male and female circumcision.
I would like to remind all of the ignorant people in this thread that sometimes this needs to be done for medical reasons. I have has myself circumcised, but only for medical reasons. I have no problem with it. I don’t feel it affects me in any way, and I also think that people who it does affect, should get over themselves. There is more than just you in the world buddy.
Yes, sometimes it needs to be done for medical reasons. But those cases are not as common as many people erroneously believe.
There are various forms of genital cutting for both sexes. For instance, some forms of female cutting are less extensive than what is done to countless male babies on a daily basis in certain parts of the world.
The fundamental point is that genital mutilation of either sex is wrong to do to a child.
I find that attitude disgusting and reprehensible and you should fucking ashamed.
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Sure, male circumcision is no where on the same level as female circumcision but that doesn’t mean it needs to be condoned or supported.
I’m simply for adults not doing any unnecasary surgery on a child’s genitals.
The only way male circumcision could be compared to female “circumcision” would be if the entire glans was removed.
Yeah, male circumcision is bad and I’m glad I wasn’t circumcised, but putting it on the same level as female genital mutilation is just insane. It’s like comparing an ingrown toenail to foot binding, or complaining that having to pay a dead relative’s debts to suttee.
There are 4 types of female circumcision. One of them, amputation of clitoral hood (female prepuce), is comparable to foreskin amputation (male prepuce). But even this type of female cutting is illegal for obvious reasons. So it’s obvious that male circumcision should also be illegal.
Also male circumcision was introduced in the US to decrease sexual pleasure thinking it would prevent masturbation. It had nothing to do with hygiene but “mental hygiene”. Male and female circumcision have the same origins, no matter what you claim.
“A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment. ”
John Harvey Kellogg, 1877
Male and female circumcision ARE comparable IN SO FAR that some types of female circumcision only remove the inner labia (which forms the female foreskin), and this is a very common form of FGM in the Middle East. The clitoris is often left intact. The radical types of FGM common in Africa (comprising cliterodectomy with or without infibulation) should not be compared with normal male circumcision. Note that male circumcision in Africa is usually performed under the same conditions as female circumcision (i.e. in the “bush”), and has a high incidence of complications. Even in the USA, problems associated with newborn male circumcision are commoner than generally believed. The peer-reviewed American journal: THYMOS: JOURNAL OF BOYHOOD STUDIES concluded in April 2010 that last year in the USA at least 117 babies DIED from circumcision (you can easily google their research). Commonest causes of death were found to be haemorrhage, infection and reaction to anesthetic.
I’m intrigued. Have the fuckwit self-absorbed completely divorced from reality anti-male circumcision zealots suffered some sort of traumatic brain injury that prevents them from processing one simple fact?
I don’t give a fuck about your pathetic fucking delusions. Fuck off you pieces of shit. Seriously, fuck off. Go play in fucking traffic. Or do something else that gets you a spinal injury to go along with your brain injury so I can laugh at the fact you’re now a quadraplegic and say “Ha fucking ha! NOW maybe you realise there are more serious issues in the world than whether or not you have a fucking foreskin!”
Also, you are all cunts.
, my cock gets so dry that it cracks and bleeds because of circumcision
You see tiger, that has nothing to do with circumcision and everything to do with what a disgusting individual you are
Steve,
You ask:
Do you question the findings in the study that say over 100 male babies died in the US last year as a result of complications from circumcision?
I do. See here for an analysis of that paper. In a nutshell, Bollinger confuses deaths due to circumcision with deaths due to being male.
Thanks Jake for your reply.
It does appear that the study referred to by Pete above is flawed. I have since contacted the author of the paper. If he gets back to me I will let you know.
Do you have any thoughts on my other points. Such as most pediatric organizations in the world do not recommend circumcision and believe it to be medically unnecessary?
Do you also accept that like female circumcision, male circumcision was originally introduced into western culture as a way to promote sexual purity. It was known that circumcision reduced the ability of the penis to be stimulated and it was used as a way to reduce masterbation.
Do you accept that like male circumcision, the proponents of female circumcision claim health benefits as justification. They believe that female circumcision helps include lower risk of vaginal cancer and AIDS, less nervous anxiety, fewer infections from microbes and protection against herpes and genital ulcers.
The truth is both were introduced as a way to reduce sexual pleasure, both are backed up by faulty science, both are painful to the baby.
Hello Steve,
It does appear that the study referred to by Pete above is flawed. I have since contacted the author of the paper. If he gets back to me I will let you know.
Okay, thanks.
Do you have any thoughts on my other points. Such as most pediatric organizations in the world do not recommend circumcision and believe it to be medically unnecessary?
That was true a decade ago, though I’m unsure whether it’s still the case now. Following the recommendations of the World Health Organisation, many countries have introduced circumcision programmes, presumably with the backing of their medical bodies. Certainly, though, it’s true that most western medical organisations do not recommend circumcision of all newborn boys, instead leaving the decision with the parents. It’s also true that circumcision is not (usually) necessary, as is obvious from the existence of living uncircumcised males.
Do you also accept that like female circumcision, male circumcision was originally introduced into western culture as a way to promote sexual purity. It was known that circumcision reduced the ability of the penis to be stimulated and it was used as a way to reduce masterbation.
No, I don’t accept that. David Gollaher, in his “Circumcision: a History of the World’s Most Controversial Surgery”, identifies health-promotion as the origin of circumcision in the west, specifically the work of Lewis Sayre who believed that circumcision helped cure paralysis among other ailments. While he does mention the fact that some advocated circumcision to prevent masturbation, Gollaher only dedicates a small number of pages to that topic, suggesting that is was of limited importance. Furthermore, it wasn’t “known” that circumcision reduced the ability of the penis to be stimulated — to know something like that would require scientific studies, studies that were not performed until recently (and which have shown, in general, that it makes no real difference).
Do you accept that like male circumcision, the proponents of female circumcision claim health benefits as justification. They believe that female circumcision helps include lower risk of vaginal cancer and AIDS, less nervous anxiety, fewer infections from microbes and protection against herpes and genital ulcers.
Would you be kind enough to cite a few examples in which proponents have done so? I’d be interested to read what they have to say, and would also be interested to see what evidence they cite. My knowledge regarding female genital cutting and many of those conditions is limited, but I have researched FGC and HIV, and know that of eleven or so studies, only two have found results consistent with a protective effect of FGC.
This is frustrating. I have had to create my third email account just to continue in this discussison. For some reasons my two previous accounts are no longer able to post here. I am not accusing AngryAussie of blocking me, I just find it odd.
I know he said he would do it on his youtube video, but I don’t think he would do it here on this blog site where there is only 12 comments.
AngryAussie if you don’t want people to criticize your views, then don’t post them online.
Now getting back to my reply to Jake
For some reason I can’t figure out how to post links like you and pete did. As far as the “medical benefits” of female circumcision, the youtube channel, LegalizeFemaleCirc did 2 videos on this. In each video he does lay out his “evidence”
While I disagree with his assessments and on the research papers he showed, they are a resource for the medical side of female circumcision.
Again for the record, I am against circumcising all children male and female except in the case of a medical emergency
Now as for the claims of curbing masterbaition being a reason to introduce circumcision to the western world, you yourself acknowledged this in citing David Gollaher’s book. We just disagree on how much of it was masterbation based and how much of it was medical based.
Noharmm dot org has a link in there that lists the different medical professionals citing masterbation as a reason for circumcision.
Again my position is that circumcising babies and children is wrong and needless for both male and females.
For some reason I can’t figure out how to post links like you and pete did. As far as the “medical benefits” of female circumcision, the youtube channel, LegalizeFemaleCirc did 2 videos on this. In each video he does lay out his “evidence”
Sorry, I find videos too tedious to bother with, and in any case they rarely provide complete citations to scientific literature. If you can find anything in written form, I’d be interested to read it.
Now as for the claims of curbing masterbaition being a reason to introduce circumcision to the western world, you yourself acknowledged this in citing David Gollaher’s book. We just disagree on how much of it was masterbation based and how much of it was medical based.
I don’t know if it was intentional, but your earlier comments seemed to suggest that prevention of masturbation was the reason for circumcision’s introduction. That appears to be incorrect, as I noted. Either way, I don’t think it particularly matters why something was done a century ago.
Noharmm dot org has a link in there that lists the different medical professionals citing masterbation as a reason for circumcision.
Yes, but of course they have an interest in exaggerating this aspect, because it helps to further their agenda. I’m not suggesting that their quotations are not genuine, but merely that they may not be all that representative.
Again my position is that circumcising babies and children is wrong and needless for both male and females.
Fair enough. You’re free to hold that point of view. I respectfully disagree.
TO THE WORTHLESS SHIT EATING CUNT POSTING UNDER THE NAME “STEVEN”:
Fuck you! Seriously, fuck off and die you miserable little cunt. You are a waste of time and YOU DISGUST ME! Do you get that? You make me physically ill you scumsucking piece of shit! And you’re going to tell me what to do? FUCK YOU! I will be deleting ANY drivel you post from now on. You know why? Because I fucking well can. You don’t like it? FUCK YOUR MOTHER!
YOU fucking work at developing as presence online that people give a fuck about and then do what you like. I don’t have to provide a fucking platform for shit eating little worms like you.
Your sense of entitlement is only one of your vile personality defects and it enrages as much as your disgusting self absorption. Fuck off and die. That isn’t a metaphor. I want you to fucking die. Preferably writhing in pain. Preferably soon. You and all your narcissistic worthless kind.
GO FUCKING DIE!
Ooh, let’s have a heated debate!
Actually, let’s not.
Mind you, there was one thing I found interesting… I know that Kellogg was a fucking nutter, who thought that smearing one’s bollox in cornflakes cured anaemia, or somesuch shite, but the idea that pain and punishment should be deliberately installed as trigger associations with the act of masturbation I found particularly fucking weird. I wonder how many other cunts such as Killfrogg have picked up on how easy it is to install these triggers, for the purpose of controlling people?
Matt
Oh, and apropos Kolldogg: does anybody know when it became the habit of people (particularly pseudo-religious types), to abandon the notion that only God has the right to punish, and, in the presumed absence of God, start dishing out the punishment themselves? Fucking (literally and figuratively), hypocrites – there’s no shortage of applicants for the God Job, is there?
Matt
Matt:Kellogg was clearly batshit insane on a number of counts. It weird how when you’re a pioneer (he actually had a few groundbreaking ideas on healthy eating) people call you crazy. It’s even weirder that groundbreaking iconoclasts frequently are totally crazy and make extreme pronouncements on topics they have zero worthwhile knowledge on.
LOL. Yes – I think the issue for most of us is that we are the glad recipients of received wisdom that doesn’t fit with our own experience. But try influencing that received wisdom (for the purpose of correcting it), and one soon realizes why the story has been framed as it has (I’m generalizing for my own interest in psychopharmacological drugs, incidentally – they don’t work, but nobody wants a discussion about it, and that tells its own story).
Anyway, I’m with you on this one, I think – nobody’s been anywhere near my dick with a sharp implement (and if they did, they’d be picking up their teeth with broken fingers), and as such I couldn’t give a shit, one way or the other.
Matt
I never knew until today that a society of anti male circumciision zealots even existed. Yes I’ll be under my rock if anyone needs me.
Gotta love old Kellogg though. Whenever he comes up in conversation it is usually related to corn flakes or wanking.
Which reminds me, I believe that Corn Flakes as the delicious, popular breakfast cereal was kinda a serendipitous invention as Kellogg and his brother were actually working on a foodstuff for their sanitarium that when consumed would curb masturbation.
Many people are not making the argument that male circumcision is as bad as female circumcision, only that male circumcision itself is not right. I am not aware of what female circumcision involves, and as such don’t wish to compare it to male circumcision. The point I am trying to make is that male circumcision provides unnecessary risks for the child. There is also no conclusive evidence that it reduces the chance of contracting STIs or that the reduction is extremely small. Babies obviously cannot provide consent for medical procedures, so only necessary medical procedures should be performed on them in my opinion. When you resort to abusing people, it’s a sign that you have no rational argument to provide. Please just look up the facts. It’s not that difficult.
Stewart wrote:
“…Kellogg and his brother were actually working on a foodstuff for their sanitarium that when consumed would curb masturbation.”
LOL. He thought that others were insane? He was probably projecting!
Matt
Fucking hilarious.
Im with you Angry. FTW
I’ve noticed that people who are zealously against male circumcision are often men who have not been circumcised and their stance is mostly a reaction to how they were teased as a child for being uncircumcised, or how women they had sex with reacted to their penis. It is an attempt to redirect the shame of their own penises onto circumcised penises.
Much of the literature advocating against circumcision is completely oblivious toward the experience of men who have been circumcised. Unlike female clitoral circumcision, men are basically never psychologically or sexually harmed by the procedure, and the difference in stimulation between a circumcised penis and an non-circumcised penis is nil–according to men who have had their penises circumcised as an adult. There are reports of men who feel the experience is better, and some who report it is worse. Given that there are now men who feel traumatized by the framing of male circumcision as a “barbaric” and “mutilation” and have gone so far as to try to replace their foreskin, it seems that the zealous anti-circumcisers actually have caused more harm to men than circumcision ever has.
Ironic, really.
Given that sexual experience between a non-circumcised penis and a circumcised penis is theoretically the same, the only considerations for why one would circumcise is for health and aesthetic reasons. People modify their bodies in many ways, including piercings and tattoos, and it would be absurd to call such modifications “mutilations,” especially if the people do them for aesthetic reasons. It is quite common, especially in the U.S. where circumcision is common, for women to prefer the aesthetic appearance of a circumcised penis. If scientifically circumcision turns out to be no benefit to health, circumcision is still a viable aesthetic option, especially when there is rarely any harm done to the person who is circumcised (anymore than someone getting a tattoo or a piercing).
So, my hypothesis is that most of the zealots are 1) uncircumcised men who are reacting to their own shame (I don’t think they should feel ashamed, but many of them do) 2) delusional/ignorant self-righteous narcissists who just get off at thinking they are the vanguard of a meaningful crusade (maybe I am being harsh on these types) 3) men who are circumcised who were duped by the other zealots to loath their penises because they were “barbarically mutilated” as children (I feel their situation incredibly sad 😦 , which is why I am harsh about the second kind)
If the science behind the health of circumcision turns out to be irrelevant (but apparently, the current conclusion of WHO is that it is sometimes prudent), honest advice to parents would be something like “Well, circumcision isnt necessarily that important health wise, but men who are circumcised don’t feel any less sexual stimulation, and in many places women prefer the appearance of a circumcised penis, while on the other hand, in other places, women prefer the appearance of uncircumcised penises; in other words, just flip a coin, cause, it really doesnt matter; but if you are hell-bent on giving your child a choice about something that will not matter, don’t give him a circumcision.”
Standing fucking ovation. Brilliantly, perfectly stated. Marry me immediately.
Well, I just got circumsized yesterday. So cant change something thats already done. It’s truly unfortunate that circumcising is practice throughout a large portion of Asia . I still dont fucking understand why circumcising is so god damn important for men besides medical reasons. What a grusome joke.
You are gravely misinformed about the comparison of male and female circumcision.
First off a clitoridectomy is not the same as female circumcision. A clitoridectomy removes the clitorises; this practice was universally accepted by American and UK medical association as malpractice since the 1910’s. It is very rarely used except by some Muslim sects and African tribes, it is true that this is a form of oppression meant to destroy their women’s sexual wellbeing.
There also is this idea that it is healthier for males to be circumcised, that is only partly true. A properly sized circumcision does offer some protection from certain blood borne STDs like HIV and syphilis; however only 1/8 male infant circumcises are correctly sized. Incorrectly sized circumcision often results in tears during intercourse GREATLY increasing the likelihood of STDs.
Also male circumcision is not done for medical reasons; most often it is due to the father being circumcised and wanting his children to be the same. The origin of this ritual most likely comes from movements in the 1880’s boasting that male circumcision prevents males from masturbating, and (specifically) black males from committing rape.
You are right I am very passionate about this subject, I was circumcised against my will and knowledge. When I was around 20 is when I was first aware that I was circumcised, I would regularly bleed after sex ( with my future wife as fate had it) and went to a urologist for help. He recommended a foreskin restoration method which I continued for 2 years when I was happy with the results. Sex is a lot more pleasing to me now but the sad truth is I can never have what I lost back I like many had my frenulum severed in my circumcision which is regarded as the most sensitive part of a penis and I will never know what sex is supposed to feel like.
Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
“I’ve noticed that people who are zealously against male circumcision are often men who have not been circumcised and their stance is mostly a reaction to how they were teased as a child for being uncircumcised, or how women they had sex with reacted to their penis. It is an attempt to redirect the shame of their own penises onto circumcised penises.”
Interesting theory.
Theory sure, not sure there’s much to it.
Oh. Male Genital Mutilation doesn’t impair sex life. Oh. It does. It hurts to get hard because the skin is right as fucking shrink wrap. THAT MUCH.
You’re a fucking moron. That’s demonstrably untrue.
Wow, no comments since 2015. Not a very lively discussion now. But as a male who is circumcised as a baby….I AM SO HAPPY ABOUT IT! I masturbate regularly (since jr high) and have always had an incredible sexual appetite. I am like this because it feels awesome! I watch porn and always have thought uncirc’d penises look weird. They just do…..like an animal’s penis. That’s just subjective, of course.
But as a physician now, the only complaints i get from uncircumcised men is yeast infections (Balanitis). Otherwise, studies have shown decreased HIV transmission and decreased incidence of penile cancer.
You could never convince me that masturbation/sexual intercourse feels better uncircumcised. NO WAY!
Besides, the whole point of a foreskin is to protect the sensitive glans penis when you are dragging it through the dirt, climbing trees, or running through bushes in the forest. For the modern man, we have pants to do this.